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Take your pick: Watts vs. Wragge

Banter Danny

Redshirt Freshmen
Staff
May 29, 2014
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By Danny O'Byrne

Next up on in our new "take your pick" feature: Ethan Wragge vs. Dane Watts.


This is a really interesting battle between two guys who played basically the same position but had two mostly different games. Not to mention the vastly different "flashiness" levels -- Wragge hit some of the deepest threes we've seen, and he did it over and over and over again. But he and Watts actually have similar overall numbers.


Let's start with Watts, the 6-foot-8 forward from Warrensburg, Mo., who played his first three years with Creighton superstars Anthony Tolliver and Nate Funk (although Funk missed almost all of one of those years with his shoulder injury). He entered Dana Altman's starting lineup midway through his freshman (2004-05) season (he started the final 23 games) and averaged 7 points and 3 rebounds per game. He was named to the MVC's all-freshman team. In addition to starting the final 23 games of his freshman year, he would start every game his final three years.


Watts increased his scoring average every year -- 7.3, 10 and 11.3. He did the same on the glass (5.4, 6.4, 6.4) and from behind the 3-point line, improving from 35 percent his freshman year to 43 percent his senior year. He scored 1,152 points in his career, an average of 9 per game, while pulling down more than 5 rebounds per game. He made two appearances in the NCAA Tournament, both first-round losses.


The 6-foot-7 Wragge is still fresh on the mind -- he made quite the splash during his senior year, the team's first as a member of the Big East. But it wasn't like he was doing anything new.


As a freshman, Wragge led the Jays in 3-pointers made (68) -- the first freshman to do so since Kyle Korver -- and 3-point percentage (43.3 percent). He was named to the MVC all-freshman team after being inserted into the starting lineup midway through the year -- sounds familiar! Wragge actually had some memorable moments the next year -- six threes at home against St. Joe's comes to mind -- before hanging it up on Dec. 22 due to foot troubles. He would receive a medical redshirt (which, numbers-wise, helps him in this battle against Watts).


Wragge hit 66 3-pointers his redshirt sophomore year, and was named the MVC's sixth man of the year after his junior season, when he was ranked as one of the nation's top shooters by pretty much everyone -- he just couldn't get into the starting lineup because he was backing up a fellow named Doug McDermott. And then his senior year rolled around, and before long, Creighton coach Greg McDermott realized that he couldn't keep Wragge on the bench, and inserted him into the five spot.


He made 110 3-pointers and shot 47 percent from behind the line his senior season, truly crazy numbers. We all remember many of his performances -- nine threes at Villanova, three in a row to break it open against Xavier at home, keeping the Jays in the game at St. Joe's. What else can you say about his shooting? But the most impressive thing about Wragge's senior year might be his improvement on the defensive side of the ball. He was asked to guard the opposing teams' centers, and he did it effectively if nothing else. His final career numbers: 1,155 points (three more than Watts!) on just 26 2-point field goals and close to 3 rebounds per game.


Take your pick: Dane Watts or Ethan Wragge?


This post was edited on 8/18 3:49 PM by Banter Danny

This post was edited on 8/18 5:54 PM by Banter Danny
 
As much as Ethan did an outstanding job of playing out of position these last couple years, I am going to go with Dane because of his overall game. It was a pity he didn't knock down those threes in the Nevada game. I know it bothered him a lot.
 
Finally someone who agrees with Danny and I! Ethan is one of my favorite offensive players to watch in Creighton history. I just think Dane brought more defense, rebounding and had some back to the basket post up game. Watts was a pretty good 3 point shooter too. Not as good as Wragge but I think he makes up for it in many other areas.
 
The notion that this is a blowout is absurd. In general, I think Dane is the right answer, but I think it really depends on who your other four are. Obviously, a guy who stretches the floor to 30 feet is always an asset, but becomes extra valuable as a piece of a larger puzzle.
 
Agree with Danny. It really depends on who else is on the court. Ethan the Lumberjack proved his worth over the last few years...a deadly accurate bomber from Treyland - for the most part. He was a willing team player who did whatever was asked of him.

Dane Watts had a different game - not a sniper like Wragge, but a very efficient player who had a well-rounded game. He and AT played very well together.

Watts (unless Rick Apke, Bob Harstad, or DMD are on this team).

This post was edited on 8/19 6:31 PM by gtmoBlue

This post was edited on 8/19 6:32 PM by gtmoBlue
 
Originally posted by Banter Danny:
The notion that this is a blowout is absurd. In general, I think Dane is the right answer, but I think it really depends on who your other four are. Obviously, a guy who stretches the floor to 30 feet is always an asset, but becomes extra valuable as a piece of a larger puzzle.
I think this is exactly true. I'm voting for Dane here to be consistent in the way that I voted for Funk over Woodfox. Dane was a more well rounded player than Wragge, but in the context of the right 4 people around him, Wragge could make a huge difference.. maybe more of a difference than Dane could on his best night.

Think of it this way, Wragge brought a particular skill that is not only in high demand, but that also changed the way the defense set up and played against us. He worked hard to be more well rounded, but never became better than an average defender and rebounder who tried hard. He may have been a much more natural 4, but with a 3 time all American on the roster, playing time there was hard to come by ;)

This one is difficult now that I think about it... In fact, I may go with Wragge instead of Dane. Here are my reasons:

1. If he gets to play his more natural position at the 4, he's more effective defensively and on the boards. Dane's advantages in these areas are lessened IF Wragge is playing the 4 he looks more effective on the floor.
2. His defense stretching shooting is at an elite level. While Dane was good at most everything, nothing he did was elite IMO.
3. His scoring was actually hurt by playing the 5 so much his senior year. On a 30 minute basis, he scored 11.56 a game senior year, but his junior year he was at 14.26 a game per 30 minutes. And even then he was playing on the team with Doug so scoring opps were more limited than they might have been during Watts' career.

Ok, so I'm going against the grain here.. Wragge by a slight amount.
 
Wow. Not one vote for Wragge. Stunning

I have seen or heard this response several times "Watts was a better defensive player." Where are your facts to back that up? He was every bit as foot speed challenged as Wragge was. People say Wragge only shot 3's--thats basically what Dane did but not as well. Yes Dane got a lot of inside buckets but he could take no one off the dribble. Ethan was a much tougher player,,read into that statement what you want. Plus in order to capitolize on the offensive mismatchs Ethan had to play basically out of position at the five, yet we never really got killed by anyone inside. Now that could be because of a lot of factors--team defense, opponents etc. Then the big game factors--Ethan showed up--i.e. Villanova. Dane not so much.

My judgement on this may be tainted because I was always disappointed Dane was not better, more of a force inside. Thats just personal opinion for me. I totally disagree with Danny--there is no right answer in any of these--just discussion and opinions. For me Wragge everyday and twice on Sunday. Plus he's a Minnesota sports fan-that puts him over the top for me. :)
 
if the question is - who is the most unselfish player in CU history - the answer is probably wragge.

with this question - i think i go Dane - but only by a slim margin.
 
Originally posted by Banter Tim:

I have seen or heard this response several times "Watts was a better defensive player." Where are your facts to back that up?
54-22 in blocks, 72-47 in steals, 465-358 in DRebs

Originally posted by Banter Tim:

He was every bit as foot speed challenged as Wragge was. People say Wragge only shot 3's--thats basically what Dane did but not as well.
Well no...only 1/3 of his shots senior year came from 3
 
WalkOnU--You must be a politician because you quickly took my statement out of context I did say that yes Dane did took more shots inside than Wragge and understand the two were different players

How do those stats say that Dane was a better defender? Of course Dane would have more blocks and rebounds than Wragge-he's bigger and stronger. that doesn't make him a better defender. When Dane played he had better defensive point guards who were able to get in passing lanes and deflect balls--ones that Dane came up with and was credited for steals. Steals can sometime be a misleading stat. As far defense goes--and I look at defense as a guy who could shut down a player and guard off the dribble --I see no difference between the two on defense.

Again may I remind everyone the segment is called take your pick not whos right and whos wrong. I don't care what stats you put out there I'm taking Ethan everytime if I had to chose between the two to start a team.. Ethan wins every intangable in my book. I will stop there. If you want more head over to the premium board and I will explain further my reasons
 
Sorry I missed that. As usual HuskerWisdom--I need to read more and post less
 
Originally posted by Banter Tim:

Sorry I missed that. As usual HuskerWisdom--I need to read more and post less
No worries, I had a convoluted post. I really was picking Dane to start, but after I got through the points, I thought Wragge deserved it more. Close competition, though, IMO and a difficult decision.
 
Originally posted by Banter Tim:

Sorry I missed that. As usual HuskerWisdom--I need to read more and post less
No worries, I had a convoluted post. I really was picking Dane to start, but after I got through the points, I thought Wragge deserved it more. Close competition, though, IMO and a difficult decision.
 
Originally posted by HuskerWisdom:


Originally posted by Banter Tim:

Sorry I missed that. As usual HuskerWisdom--I need to read more and post less
No worries, I had a convoluted post. I really was picking Dane to start, but after I got through the points, I thought Wragge deserved it more. Close competition, though, IMO and a difficult decision.


Wait until next week's matchup! I told Tim who it was and he goes "Well they're the same player."
 
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